RumpledElf

Wind turbines

27 posts in this topic

Was driving to my old town today with the toddler in the back seat. When she spotted the wind turbines one way, she pipes up with "Spin! Spin! Spin!"

On the way back it was "I finded the spinners!"

Cute.

Those wind turbines are multiplying like rabbits, they are really close to the road I take now. Massive things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was driving to my old town today with the toddler in the back seat. When she spotted the wind turbines one way, she pipes up with "Spin! Spin! Spin!"

On the way back it was "I finded the spinners!"

Cute.

Those wind turbines are multiplying like rabbits, they are really close to the road I take now. Massive things.

Hi RE.

That is so cute. I miss my kids at that age.

But I have often wondered if the 3 bladed propellor is still the most efficient wind turbine we can invent.

They seem so artificial dotted about the countryside, and they are noisy.

I wish I had some time to experiment with other formats of turbine.

Steam, and hydro turbines for instance use jets and veins to produce rotary force.

Could we channel wind into a venturi of some sort to drive vein driven turbines, like on the snowy mountain hydro scheme?

I guess I'm just dreaming, but they do seem so cumbersome, somehow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Incredible. Any idea how long that is, savagegoose?

I don't know how long they are but they come on the back of massive trucks - much, much longer than a double semitrailer - that take about 10 minutes to turn a corner. The bases of the towers are wider than the roads here, they come with police escort that shooshes everyone ahead of them onto the road shoulder.

Ours are on top of a ridge pretty much in the middle of nowhere so the noise isn't an issue, but they do look surreal in the landscape, especially as we are so high up that they stick right through the clouds here. The residents of Hallett complained about the blinking lights on top of them keeping them awake at night (my first thought was just "shut your curtains!") so Suzlon checked that they are not, in fact, on any kind of plane route, and turned the lights off.

So if a plane hits them one day, someone will be suing the old lady in Hallett with no curtains :D

Edit: and of course that's the Hallett wind farm in my avatar so you can see it is a very densely populated area ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

no idea, notice the close blade is lift profile, so got lifted more than the far one. the night that happen was like 15 knot winds im told. cant recall what he said the length was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so Suzlon checked that they are not, in fact, on any kind of plane route, and turned the lights off.

Air 'routes' per se are for aircraft operating generally at altitudes above 10,000feet and mostly above 18,000feet.

The aircraft that hits them will be a farmer or a cross country in a light plane low level flying via Visual Flight Rules.

I dare say that having a high obstacle without red anti collsion laights defies Civil Aviation Regs/Orders which are C'wealth statutes.

On the way back it was "I finded the spinners!"

Can she find one like this? We need one badly.

Shane%20Warne.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Air 'routes' per se are for aircraft operating generally at altitudes above 10,000feet and mostly above 18,000feet.

The aircraft that hits them will be a farmer or a cross country in a light plane low level flying via Visual Flight Rules.

I dare say that having a high obstacle without red anti collsion laights defies Civil Aviation Regs/Orders which are C'wealth statutes.

Can she find one like this? We need one badly.

Shane%20Warne.jpg

They have a few of these spinners up your way TP.

On Windy Hill I think its called. :thumbup:

Wind power in far north Queensland

Still we got all the Indians out for 405. We're 15 runs ahead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still we got all the Indians out for 405. We're 15 runs ahead.

True. Though we were helped by fact that the Indians couldn't catch a cold in a beer cool room after being locked for 5hours soaking wet. :laugh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Max,

I meant to reply to you, but then I saw Bernie's post. (I never know what to call him anymore)

That isn't quite what I had in mind, but a closed vein turbine such as this below

steam-turbine-rotor.jpg

These turbines are extremeley efficient, (almost 95%) when run in white metal bearings, but the drawback is they require super-heated steam (totally dry high pressure steam)to operate. Sugar mills generate most of their electricity from the system of burning bagasse in boilers and subsequently driving the turbines which drive the mills as well.

A few drops of water in the steam though and they are cactus.

This is a picture of it in its casings.

cctbpic.jpg

They operate with venturi jets applying the steam directly to the veins, through a series of passes.

They usually have low pressure steam maintaining the temperature in the turbine so that there is no mechanical distortion.

The large end of the turbine is where the HP steam is losing velocity and increasing in mass. That's where the efficiencies come in.

What I am thinking about is a series of wind tunnels that funnel the wind through a moderated larger version of this machine.

I don't know that its possible, but funnelling natural wind through a venturi has its difficulties, and may totally reduce its effectiveness.

I do know they are definitely considering this with geo-thermal.

Thanks for listening guys. I'm just day-dreaming in public.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone see this?

Rough ride for sea power

A LACK of government support for the fledgling wave-energy industry is forcing Australian companies to increasingly invest overseas despite having the world's best wave resource off our coastline.

Several Australian wave-energy proponents have started projects in such places as Hawaii, Central America and Ireland, saying Australia's risk-averse tendency is holding back investment.

Clean energy advocates are concerned that wave power could experience the same sort of brain drain that has hit the Australian solar industry over the past decade.

David Mills took his solar thermal company, Ausra, to the US nearly a decade ago and last year hit a financial wall because of lack of funding.

University of NSW researcher Zhengrong Shi was forced to take his business, Suntech, to China, creating one of the world's biggest solar photovoltaic firms.

Australian-listed Dyesol, which makes photovoltaic cells, found greener pastures in Wales, successfully commercialising its power-generating steel panels, which it was unable to do in Australia.

Ali Baghaei, the chief executive of Oceanlinx, said that while the federal government has been relatively supportive of more mature renewable energies such as wind power, its policy settings needed to support developing technologies in order to get the right mix of power generation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone see this?

Rough ride for sea power

Thanks TP.

Our government would rather spend money on insulating roof batts.

Or the education revolution.

Bah!

What's the use of educating kids so they apply their intelligence to a problem, only to discover that their are no funds for research and development.

Our CSIRO (CSIRO) used to be, one of the most admired in the world. Now its a only a shadow of its once former glory.

We would rather import, and pay 10 times over, for our own inventiveness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We would rather import, and pay 10 times over, for our own inventiveness.

Yeah, we export the people with the brains and ideas - they go seeking development funding overseas - and then we import the fruits of their labour.

Very shortsighted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, we export the people with the brains and ideas - they go seeking development funding overseas - and then we import the fruits of their labour.

Very shortsighted.

And we let a bizarre little side story about dudes on boats derail our immigration policies. We ought to be trying to drain all the other countries brains.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Smart people with good ideas don't tend to come here on ricketty boats ... or leave on them, for that matter.

One day the ENTIRE coast of Australia will be fully populated, and there'll just be a 1800 number to call to dob in a boat trying to land :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I am thinking about is a series of wind tunnels that funnel the wind through a moderated larger version of this machine.

I don't know that its possible, but funnelling natural wind through a venturi has its difficulties, and may totally reduce its effectiveness.

I do know they are definitely considering this with geo-thermal.

Thanks for listening guys. I'm just day-dreaming in public.

You might be onto something. Been a while since I did fluid mechanics but I wonder if increasing wind speed through a funnel also increases drag against the funnel making funneling wind to increase velocity / density at the turbine a poor trade off over the losses of energy against the funnel. Certainly the extra drag once it gets to the turbine bit is going to power your turbine a whole lot more effectively but what is the trade off between the funneling losses in drag and the extra drag caused by the additional velocity / pressure at the turbine?

Don't know what the latest is on maglev wind turbines. I fear that if Aussies don't like conventional wind turbines they are not going to fancy these?

maglevwindturbine.jpg

A bit of info in this post:

http://www.envirowarrior.com/maglev-wind-turbines/

More information:

http://www.inhabitat.com/2007/11/26/super-powered-magnetic-wind-turbine-maglev/

Some of the comments are interesting below this second article:

Betz’ law states that the maximum theoretical efficiency of a wind turbine is 59%. Modern turbines are already pretty damn efficient so the best one could hope for is a few percentage point improvement.

Another post that was interesting as we have had them knocked back in Australia due to rare bird species:

Of a percent of all human caused bird deaths, from Ericson, et al, 2002, Summary of Anthropogenic Causes of Bird Mortality., the results are:

55% buildings/windows

10% cats

10% other

8% power lines

7% cars and trucks

7% pesticides

2.5% towers

0.01% wind turbines

We could increase the number of wind turbines by fifty times, and still it account for under 1% of anthropogenic bird fatalities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We could increase the number of wind turbines by fifty times, and still it account for under 1% of anthropogenic bird fatalities.

Man it is worlds of time since I did fluid as well and that was my specialty (although slurries as opposed to clean fluids).

However I believe birds don't get nailed by wind turbines but bats do because their ribcages are so much weaker or something.

From memory bats don't even have to get that close, the pressure differential last for metres and buggers them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man it is worlds of time since I did fluid as well and that was my specialty (although slurries as opposed to clean fluids).

However I believe birds don't get nailed by wind turbines but bats do because their ribcages are so much weaker or something.

From memory bats don't even have to get that close, the pressure differential last for metres and buggers them.

Also maybe bats sonar does not work on a moving object there one moment gone the next. I don't know that they would be wired for such things as they do not occur often naturally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You might be onto something. Been a while since I did fluid mechanics but I wonder if increasing wind speed through a funnel also increases drag against the funnel making funneling wind to increase velocity / density at the turbine a poor trade off over the losses of energy against the funnel. Certainly the extra drag once it gets to the turbine bit is going to power your turbine a whole lot more effectively but what is the trade off between the funneling losses in drag and the extra drag caused by the additional velocity / pressure at the turbine?

Don't know what the latest is on maglev wind turbines. I fear that if Aussies don't like conventional wind turbines they are not going to fancy these?

maglevwindturbine.jpg

A bit of info in this post:

http://www.envirowarrior.com/maglev-wind-turbines/

More information:

http://www.inhabitat.com/2007/11/26/super-powered-magnetic-wind-turbine-maglev/

Some of the comments are interesting below this second article:

Another post that was interesting as we have had them knocked back in Australia due to rare bird species:

Hey thanks Tom.

I notice most of these facilities are open air.

My idea is to house them within a large shed - like an aeroplane hangar, with a wide scoop to catch air, and like the air cleaner venturi on most cars channel the wind to a smaller surface where it's increased velocity, increases its power.

Such funnels could also redirect the air so that several turbines could be housed in the one place.

The efficiencies on the 3 vaned wind turbines are pretty impressive, but such a facility in my mind would increase efficiency and look aesthitically more pleasing, rather than wind-mills scattered all over the countryside.

The other aspect is the infrastructure with the wind-turbines as they now are. They require connection to one another and then into the grid. All very involved and complicated. A single facility would be much more economically sound.

A series of sheds situated in the right place on the Atherton Tableland (for instance) would pick up sufficient consistency of wind to supply that area.

The other advantage of my idea, is that with a series of dampers, the wind velocity would not matter, as it currently does. In cyclone season in Nth Qld, they have to lock the turbines down. I think anything other 25 knots, and they become unstable.

Anyhow, as I mentioned, I'm probably just day-dreaming here.

If I discover a method of doing some drawings that I can post on here, I will give you a schematic of what I'm thinking.

Edited by Solomon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also maybe bats sonar does not work on a moving object there one moment gone the next. I don't know that they would be wired for such things as they do not occur often naturally.

Windmills turn pretty slow, slower than say "food on the wing" I doubt that would cause them issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Windmills turn pretty slow, slower than say "food on the wing" I doubt that would cause them issues.

Good point!

If they can grab a flying insect than surely they can avoid a whopping great big wind turbine!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey thanks Tom.

I notice most of these facilities are open air.

My idea is to house them within a large shed - like an aeroplane hangar, with a wide scoop to catch air, and like the air cleaner venturi on most cars channel the wind to a smaller surface where it's increased velocity, increases its power.

Such funnels could also redirect the air so that several turbines could be housed in the one place.

The efficiencies on the 3 vaned wind turbines are pretty impressive, but such a facility in my mind would increase efficiency and look aesthitically more pleasing, rather than wind-mills scattered all over the countryside.

The other aspect is the infrastructure with the wind-turbines as they now are. They require connection to one another and then into the grid. All very involved and complicated. A single facility would be much more economically sound.

A series of sheds situated in the right place on the Atherton Tableland (for instance) would pick up sufficient consistency of wind to supply that area.

The other advantage of my idea, is that with a series of dampers, the wind velocity would not matter, as it currently does. In cyclone season in Nth Qld, they have to lock the turbines down. I think anything other 25 knots, and they become unstable.

Anyhow, as I mentioned, I'm probably just day-dreaming here.

If I discover a method of doing some drawings that I can post on here, I will give you a schematic of what I'm thinking.

You might have done humanity a great favour by putting it in the public domain so it now cannot be patented, assuming of course you do not patent it yourself in the next 12 months?

I like the idea of solar towers for energy:

http://www.alternativeenergyhq.com/the-solar-tower-lcforlc-broad-scale-clean-energy-solutions.php

solartower1.jpg

Though this is still not the one I was thinking of where the tower itself is a massive chimney that generates energy through the chimney effect, cold at the top hot around the base so the air travels up through the chimney and pretty fast if it is tall enough and the difference in temp at top and bottom is sufficient. Takes a pretty big feat of engineering to build such a tower but I would love to be involved with such a project if one happened here. I suspect that if one happened they will be shooting for the worlds tallest structure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

maglevwindturbine.jpg

i know why we don't have windmills (like re's) in small scale on top of houses. but why not a small scale of the above?

what's the cost (yeah i know it would be high at first but would come down with efficiencies of scale) of roof top wind power generation vs solar? benefits? drawbacks?

i'm no engineer so i have no idea about the answers to these questions.

where's dyson when you need him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now