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Is this Election on Policy or on Gender?

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So some building code techical represents the whole union movement? The Airline Pilots Association? Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association? Civil Air Operations Association (mine)? What about the bloody Nurses Federation? Don't write sh*t about one corner of society and label the whole shebang with a 60ft brush.

Its the entire construction industry, or at least any companies that wish to work on jobs with any government funding.

Clearly the construction industry is an important one for the union movement apart from wharfies it is about as staunch as it gets the precise reason why Howard introduced specific legislation to address this industry. It is why you hear the CFMEU union people saying it is unfair that they are specifically targeted through the Australian Building and Construction Commission.

Now I do not employ people for any industry other than construction but certainly in this industry the Labor government has given the union more power than they had before.

I am for free markets and I am afraid this extends to the biggest market of them all the labour market. The things you talk of are safety or technical regulations. Of course where the private sector fails the government has to regulate in these areas. This should not mean however we say we should regulate the labour market only regulate the work itself if it is necessary to.

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Apologies if I came across as terse, it is only that I see no redeeming value in the current PM within parliament, and am despondent with the current political/parliamentary leadership in this country.

Gillard is no idiot, but she has demonstrated she is an incompetent minister. She also has some pretty serious charges laid against her:

http://www.larryhann...m/treason01.htm

http://www.omegatime....php?intid=1321

Labor has nobody better - the barrel's empty! Unfortunately I don't see too much from the Libs or others.

Too many suburban lawyers in parliament, we need less. Solomon may correct me but Jesus Christ only spoke badly of one profession - lawyers, and became violent against one - money changers. Not much has changed in 2000 years and I don't like the idea of another suburban lawyer cum career politician as PM.

The only woman who could turn around this country is the Queen, by enforcing the Constitution and the will of the people (and she has the authority to do so). We desperately need to get back to basics and rid ourselves of the lawyer-run parliament and the money changers (banks and insurance companies).

Mr Medved,

You present yourself so well in what you have to say, very likable and enjoyable to read! thumbsup.gif

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Too many suburban lawyers in parliament, we need less. Solomon may correct me but Jesus Christ only spoke badly of one profession - lawyers, and became violent against one - money changers. Not much has changed in 2000 years and I don't like the idea of another suburban lawyer cum career politician as PM.

I imagine you are talking about this passage, Medved.

One of the lawyers answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us too." And he said, "Woe also to you lawyers! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not lift a finger to ease them.

Luke 11:45-46 (NRSV)

The difficulty is that parliament is all about law.

It is the legislature of the country, and its job is to construct law. The difficulty is that lawyers are not trained to develop law, but to interpret it. What you need to create good laws and policy is wisdom.

That is a rare quality in any government, because many are just simply filling the seats of power, to serve their own vested interest.

Very few blue collar, or labourers ever reach parliamentary selection for high ranking positions, (even if they get elected), because they can't compete with the slick lawyer speak. Nowadays especially with intense media scrutiny on every word, such people are simply like fish out of water. Look what happened to Barnaby Joyce, and he has an accounting degree, and ran his own business!! The parties prefer the front men and women, to be able to speak concisely, and lawyers generally have that training. Bankers, seem to fill treasury roles, I guess simply as a matter of course.

Love them or hate them, I think lawyers are going to be around the halls of parliament for a fair while yet.

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Its the entire construction industry, or at least any companies that wish to work on jobs with any government funding.

Clearly the construction industry is an important one for the union movement apart from wharfies it is about as staunch as it gets the precise reason why Howard introduced specific legislation to address this industry. It is why you hear the CFMEU union people saying it is unfair that they are specifically targeted through the Australian Building and Construction Commission.

Now I do not employ people for any industry other than construction but certainly in this industry the Labor government has given the union more power than they had before.

I am for free markets and I am afraid this extends to the biggest market of them all the labour market. The things you talk of are safety or technical regulations. Of course where the private sector fails the government has to regulate in these areas. This should not mean however we say we should regulate the labour market only regulate the work itself if it is necessary to.

Bullsh*t:

I am for free markets and I am afraid this extends to the biggest market of them all the labour market

The graph attached refutes that. And you said construction industry. I am labour market, so is the nurse and pilot.

A dude on a site with a piece of dynamite up his arse running around and blowing up 50 people in Karratha will have have less impact economically than a stressed out nurse that killed 5 or a 747 fire ball.

Its about trust. Stop painting the associations and unions that do good work with your narrow industry.

(graph: http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4102.0Main+Features20Mar+2010 )

post-103-12807519604669_thumb.jpg

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There is no way I would put industrial relations in the points for labour, however there is no question in my mind the libs went to far in their last term. I remember on election night for Howard's last term them suddenly saying (I think it was bishop?) now we have the senate we can push through industrial relations reform etc, and thought wtf this is not in the libs pamphlet!

Having a 2 tier unfair dismissal law system is ridiculous. Why should an employee from one organisation have different rights to those of another. I think however it should be a market like any other though and so do not like the forced inclusions of unions for national code compliance that Labor have brought in. They are using Howards legacy to give the unions more power!

Every time I sacrifice my weekend and leave Ms clown to her own devices for the day I draw solice from the fact that they are paying me double what I usually get. This is fair- It's Sunday and work is now significantly impacting my free time. I like my penalty rates as it encourages better planning project wise. You want me to work weekends you pay. Simple. I was one who marched at the work choices campaign. This is the middle ages and I'm a f*cking stone mason. I'm flexible and mobile. All they asked for. But this ability doesn't come cheap. Ask Tor.

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Every time I sacrifice my weekend and leave Ms clown to her own devices for the day I draw solice from the fact that they are paying me double what I usually get. This is fair- It's Sunday and work is now significantly impacting my free time. I like my penalty rates as it encourages better planning project wise. You want me to work weekends you pay. Simple. I was one who marched at the work choices campaign. This is the middle ages and I'm a f*cking stone mason. I'm flexible and mobile. All they asked for. But this ability doesn't come cheap. Ask Tor.

Man that is it in a nutshell.

When Worckchoices came in the supervisors that took contracts took accepted overtime and a flat salary that was 20%+ above (a normal sup shift is 10% premium for us commies) but work 'as required' and with time off in lieu they hated it. Go home at 11pm and back in wee hours stuff (no ops, we won't let them near the aeroplanes, sycophantic cocksuckers), no penalties. Those that pointed out the bleeding obvious got 'released' under clause....

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I imagine you are talking about this passage, Medved...

That seems a bit of an unusual translation to me. Pharisees copped a bashing in the christian tradition but comparing them to lawyers seems a bit harsh.

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Every time I sacrifice my weekend and leave Ms clown to her own devices for the day I draw solice from the fact that they are paying me double what I usually get. This is fair- It's Sunday and work is now significantly impacting my free time. I like my penalty rates as it encourages better planning project wise. You want me to work weekends you pay. Simple. I was one who marched at the work choices campaign. This is the middle ages and I'm a f*cking stone mason. I'm flexible and mobile. All they asked for. But this ability doesn't come cheap. Ask Tor.

I am off to a meeting at my primary contract this morning where "The problems we face" are to be addressed. I think this is because of all the overtime repaid as time in lieu and the staff turnover it is causing.

I always used to hate that with a passion. When the girlfriend worked it would mean I got time off when she wasn't there in return for being away when she was. Seemed a crap deal.

With most of my clients I only charge overtime if they ask me to work at a specific time. If I can choose when I do the work (and it is done remotely of course) then I charge my normal rate. Works well as I have always been an early riser. Starting at 3 or 4 in the morning and then being done with a normal 8 hr shift by lunchtime is a nice way of doing it I reckon.

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That seems a bit of an unusual translation to me. Pharisees copped a bashing in the christian tradition but comparing them to lawyers seems a bit harsh.

It's the New Revised Standard Version. The most up-to-date translation directly from the Greek.A link to an explanation

In some translations, lawyers are referred to as scribes and vice versa. Both had similar roles in transcribing the Pharisees ruling into the Torah, and then from then on, interpreting what they meant. Pharisees ended up being the ruling party after the destruction of the Temple, and the forerunner to modern day Jewish worship in synagogues. They cop a bashing in Luke and Matthew's gospel, as they were the main adversaries of the developing Christian "sect", and demanded that all Jews observe the law. They were responsible for seeking persecution for Christians. Both those gospels were written around 80 to 90 C.E. (They may have been written earlier but are generally agreed to have been written in the latter part of the 1st century)so this was all pretty fresh in their memories. The lawyers came up with all sorts of reasons why Christians couldn't participate in regular Jewish festivals, or engage in community activities, so they were regarded with the same suspicion.

It probably helps to remember that the Sanhedrin was the government of the Jewish people, after the fall of the kingdoms. It was primarily made up of Pharisees, Sadducees, Zealots, Scribes and Lawyers.

Edited by Solomon

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Every time I sacrifice my weekend and leave Ms clown to her own devices for the day I draw solice from the fact that they are paying me double what I usually get. This is fair- It's Sunday and work is now significantly impacting my free time. I like my penalty rates as it encourages better planning project wise. You want me to work weekends you pay. Simple. I was one who marched at the work choices campaign. This is the middle ages and I'm a f*cking stone mason. I'm flexible and mobile. All they asked for. But this ability doesn't come cheap. Ask Tor.

I pay some employees precisely like tor. tor is indeed working the very way the unions hate, on contract. This is how the market gets the best people by paying them the most. The unions prefer a collective agreement, this is stupid. How do you get the best if you pay everyone the same?

Anyway I possibly don't pay the same rate as tor gets but at $65.00 an hour up north, them getting a guaranteed 11hours per day for a good labourer or average carpenter on contract rates where I still pay super, insurance and payroll on top of this the unions still do not like it because they are out of the loop.

This is a market, I can get the best carpenters etc at this rate. I cannot get them on $33.00 per hour plus 24hour top up insurance, travel allowance, redundancy trust, extra super, and a raft of other allowances which do my head in administering for working in everything from presurised environments to driving a piece of plant etc etc and yet both employees cost me around the same per hour about $75.00, whether they get $65.00 or $33.00+ + + + +.

Union likes option 2, cause this is the union EBA. Many workers like option 1 because they get far more in their hands and less goes to insurance companies etc. Clearly there are tax benefits to option 1 also and will be even more if labor gets in at the next election.

Interestingly to a company OT is about the same all up cost as that for ordinary time, as you are not getting super, holiday pay, sick pay, and a raft of other on costs you get only on ordinary time. It is not exactly the same but it is not as significant as you might think. It is the 10th hour that costs the most due to the meal allowance being accrued.

Of course some unscrupulous companies use contracting arrangements to pay under award by say paying $30.00 on contract which due to no allowances can be under the relevant modern award. There is now sham contracting regulations in place to prevent this happening, which I am OK with as after speaking to them on the rates I pay it is far and above any modern award... The benefit in a real labour market is it allows you to come to an arrangement with your people which allows you to find and retain the best paying the worst people sh*t pay and the best good pay. Don't force me to pay all the same. Why is this efficient? Why is this the best outcome for Australia?

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Its about trust. Stop painting the associations and unions that do good work with your narrow industry.

Are you suggesting in these other industries the labor government is freeing up the labour market? I would have thought even with what you are saying they are not.

It would seem inconsistent to me for you to not want to tax the highest income earners against the lowest income earners and then when it comes to the labour force think everyone should be on a level playing field. This is what unionism and collective agreements create. This is what individual agreements seek to change.

Anyway moving to a labour market is off the agenda in the short term in Australia for the forseable future Barnaby last night on Q and A said he would resign if they re-introduced it in the next term. So between Abbot and Barnaby I think it is likely that it will be kept under wraps for a time.

For competition and efficiency you cannot really say labor is any different to any other resource or input the closer it behaves to a market the better the result for the economy and for efficiency.

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Excellent we can recruit our Surgical/AE/Triage nurses, airline pilots and air traffic controller based on who will come in on the shortest notice unscheduled, work the longest hours without complaint and will accept the lowest remuneration.

You'll except that? Good, the residency visa is in the mail. When can you start, many of our staff have recently departed for Europe, Canada and the UAE...

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Excellent we can recruit our Surgical/AE/Triage nurses, airline pilots and air traffic controller based on who will come in on the shortest notice unscheduled, work the longest hours without complaint and will accept the lowest remuneration.

You'll except that? Good, the residency visa is in the mail. When can you start, many of our staff have recently departed for Europe, Canada and the UAE...

Your right you will pay the minimum you can to retain the best people. On the flip side workers will look for the maximum remuneration they can get.

This is how markets work.

All that said I do agree with a minimum safety net for vulnerable workers sure, I would not want to see people on $7.00 an hour like in the USA. It is over and above this collective agreements seem to average out everyones pay between the best and the worst. Don't you look over your shoulder at some useless prick working next to you and ask yourself why does he get paid the same as I do? Sure you might be on a higher tier due to more years service or a promotion to a different role but within roles clearly it is fairer that there is graduations due to performance.

You mention nurses and I think it is likely the very reason we cannot retain nurses is we are not paying them enough. If we just don't pay them enough don't expect many to take up the profession. At present their wages are set and most of the industry works to the same agreement, with some states offering better than others victoria seems to be the stand out? Anyway instead of the flexibility of a hospital which is short of staff paying more they look to the very things you talk about, bring in more from overseas etc, and worse pay third parties who can pay a better rate for casuals. This is because the market mechanism is failing or not present in this industry. It is ridiculous we pay casual nurses so much through agencies just because the pay rates set by the EBA are not high enough to attract full time nurses into the system.

As I have said before if I was a nurse I would be awful dirty that the government rather than just paying more is, a) subsidising education for nurses joining now and B) bringing in hundreds from OS. I think pay them more and more will join the profession.

I guess the upshot is I am quite comfortable with a market even for my own labour. If conditions change and the market collapses then sure I have to accept a pay cut commensurate with demand for my skills. Of course I may choose not to accept this and they can find someone else to do my job but this is my choice and their choice, it is not a unilateral decision on the part of the employer and nor do I need a third party to explain my skills and nor am I and the other managers going to hold the company over the barrel and go on strike. I will walk or stay, this is ultimately in my hands. As you point out you would do the same if work choices was reintroduced.

On the flip side if the market races ahead then make hay while the sun shines. This it would seem is both better for the individual but importantly it is better collectively as the economy can evolve to suit the prevailing conditions. This is what markets do best, and what a regulated labour force will not achieve.

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I'll keep it simple:

10 Registered Nurses with 10 years experience each work shifts at the Surgical ward. You pay them all the same via EBA you can't differentiate since they do the same tasks under the same conditions.

20 Boeing 737 Captains with over 10 years at the company at a city base all with the same command endorsements. You pay them all the same via EBA you can't differentiate since they do the same tasks under the same conditions.

20 Air Traffic Controllers with over 10 years at the company at a city OPS centre all with the same traffic and sector endorsements, all shift workers. You pay them all the same via EBA you can't differentiate since they do the same tasks under the same conditions.

You start favouring Peter over Paula for whatever reason and the team falls apart. When there is team disunity in those jobs lives are put in danger.

We aren't talking trench diggers we are talking careers where Australians are highly valued globally.

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...10 X with X years experience each work X, You pay them all the same via EBA you can't differentiate since they do the same tasks under the same conditions...

It is fairly rare that real world people have the same experience and the same skills and are working a job where this is not visible.

My issue with the EBA / award / paygrade etc ideas is that there is little incentive to try harder. I only work for the money so being told that I couldn't have any more because my job is in a certain pay grade and I was already maxing that out was the main reason I quit being an FTE and went contract. Now if I want to devote a weekend to extra skills or code refactoring or generally trying to be more productive I can at least assume it will enhance my pocket if not charge someone for it directly.

I will certainly agree that pay grades and EBA and all make life easier for management though and do certainly reduce the disruption within a team where that disruption is based on salary differences.

I will say that in my experience operational type teams don't require pay differences to bitch about each other though :)

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I'll keep it simple:

10 Registered Nurses with 10 years experience each work shifts at the Surgical ward. You pay them all the same via EBA you can't differentiate since they do the same tasks under the same conditions.

20 Boeing 737 Captains with over 10 years at the company at a city base all with the same command endorsements. You pay them all the same via EBA you can't differentiate since they do the same tasks under the same conditions.

20 Air Traffic Controllers with over 10 years at the company at a city OPS centre all with the same traffic and sector endorsements, all shift workers. You pay them all the same via EBA you can't differentiate since they do the same tasks under the same conditions.

You start favouring Peter over Paula for whatever reason and the team falls apart. When there is team disunity in those jobs lives are put in danger.

We aren't talking trench diggers we are talking careers where Australians are highly valued globally.

Our trench diggers are highly valued!

If a job exists where everyone has the same output with regard to personal commitment, perserverance or other personal characteristics then a liberal market I suppose is less important.

Clearly this does not work in professions where the individual makes a large difference to the outcome. I guess where you see a stark difference in pays is in professions where individuals are the driver of the outcome. A lawyer for example can earn anywhere from 50k to 500k before becoming a partner. This is because in his job he can either win the multi million dollar case or lose it and often it is his own decisions which change the outcome. Or perhaps he can create the dudd contract that loses a company millions of dollars.

The water treatment plant techie who might have the lives of half of a city in his hands (can you pass me the arsenic?) but ultimately as long as he does the job everyone is safe and I imagine will not be payed for extra performance because his extra performance does not yield a result, he just has a level of competance required rather than a result commensurate with his effort.

I suppose I can concede it does seem professions where you need to be highly skilled but the outcome is the same as long as the individual has the quals and has a commitment to the job then paying different rates to different people is more trouble than it is worth and as you point out would lead to disunity.

This is however not how it goes in labouring believe it or not, nor even trench digging your example above. A few hard worker is worth more than a few average workers and when on-costs like accomodation, flights etc lead to $300.00 per day costs you would rather the small team of good workers than a large team of mediocre operators. This is why the likes of tor can demand high rates of pay. When the individual makes the difference to the outcome people reward this individual and no union is necessary as an intermediary.

Reflecting on this again it would seem to me it is in occupations where people are interchangeable that unions are required to prevent companies changing workers in and out at their whim where they may all do the same job. This however is still a market and I cannot see why it should be treated differently to any other market though take your point it is less necessary for the occupations you speak of above.

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A few hard worker is worth more than a few average workers and when on-costs like accomodation, flights etc lead to $300.00 per day costs you would rather the small team of good workers than a large team of mediocre operators.

Thats a fairly good example.

Unfortunately in an operating theatre or cockpit or ATC centre working harder is not an issue.

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Thats a fairly good example.

Unfortunately in an operating theatre or cockpit or ATC centre working harder is not an issue.

I have not worked those environments but naively assume that when TSHTF there are people way more capable than others. Years of experience don't count as much as number of SHTF experiences in my opinion. When all 4 engines flame out on the 747 I am in I really want the pilot to have done loads of simulations and preferably a few real ones. If I was a pilot that had done a few real ones I would be asking for a higher wage simply because I have a proven track record.

I have yet to see a pay grade which recognises how many times you have saved the day in a SNAFU.

I still think pay grades and similar are basically an easy way for management to not have to deal with the complexities of rewarding actual skills and professionalism, instead they can make a trophy or otherwise meaningless prize and award that. Makes life easy, the recipient feels rewarded and no one else cares enough that it causes tension.

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Hehehe. Now that would be cool. Being paid for SHTF wins. Tor for CEO!!

I actually brought that up once after a SNAFU day. The answer: you are paid as much as you are to do what you did not the 90% of the time you are doing normal sh*t (that is pulse <65, no perspiration, no adrenalin no sphincter sealed shut etc).

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Thats a fairly good example.

Unfortunately in an operating theatre or cockpit or ATC centre working harder is not an issue.

The irony in this is that it would seem that a trench digger is closer to a lawyer than a highly skilled and qualified technician is. Actually maybe it is not ironic at all...

Operators are usually another one where individual performance makes a big difference, but I suppose operating a jumbo drill rig is different to operating a jumbo jet. :) It is important one, the former, is operated to maximum capacity and with rapid movements and changeovers to achieve production rates as an entire work team follows behind and this governs the productivity of an entire crew, for the other the plane it is crucial it gets from A to B safely and the operator is equipped to deal with any unforseen circumstance along the way where pushing the envelope on production does not have the same benefit, probably just costs more fuel?

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Hehehe. Now that would be cool. Being paid for SHTF wins. Tor for CEO!!

I actually brought that up once after a SNAFU day. The answer: you are paid as much as you are to do what you did not the 90% of the time you are doing normal sh*t (that is pulse <65, no perspiration, no adrenalin no sphincter sealed shut etc).

We used to call DBA a mattress job. Most of the time you lie around doing nothing, hard to move and often have weird stains.

But when TSHTF you can throw the mattress at it and none of it spatters anywhere else.

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i pay my union to work out my pay because to be honest i'm sh*t at negotiating those sorts of things. i do my job, i'm not a HR or negotiating expert.

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i pay my union to work out my pay because to be honest i'm sh*t at negotiating those sorts of things. i do my job, i'm not a HR or negotiating expert.

No one is an HR expert, not even HR :)

That is a perfectly valid reason for using a union though.

Personally I would try and practice negotiating, it is a handy skill to have for many aspects of life. Basically it comes down to working out how to measure yourself and working out what the other person really wants. Most people given an acceptable deal will take it simply because they are so afraid of negotiating I reckon.

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No one is an HR expert, not even HR :)

That is a perfectly valid reason for using a union though.

Personally I would try and practice negotiating, it is a handy skill to have for many aspects of life. Basically it comes down to working out how to measure yourself and working out what the other person really wants. Most people given an acceptable deal will take it simply because they are so afraid of negotiating I reckon.

I'm quite good at negotiating but for a lot people it's not there area of expertise and rely on their union.

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