staringclown

Bubble trouble for RBA

83 posts in this topic

1 - Don't dump your private health insurance, ever.

I didn't think there was a point to private health insurance unless you were expecting something bad to happen. I'd get it if the offspring looked to be sprouting horrendously crooked teeth, or if my knees were giving way and I wanted a knee reconstruction, but most relatively 'normal' stuff seems to be covered quite well in the public system. Says me who hasn't got sick since I gained weight a few years ago.

I had a scan in a very swanky converted mansion in a leafy inner Eastern suburb the other week because the big regional hospital was overbooked and was quite surprised to get much better service, a DVD of pictures and absolutely no charge :) I was expecting a gap.

Our local hospital gives you the private room anyway if you have a baby, and if you've got private cover you get wine with your meal and television. Private or public you cough up $5 for additional meals for guests rooming in. The vaguely Helga-ish scarey woman who runs the place is adamant it is much better than the hospitals in the city ... and HER doctors are all hand-picked for speaking good English. She has a point.

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I didn't think there was a point to private health insurance unless you were expecting something bad to happen. I'd get it if the offspring looked to be sprouting horrendously crooked teeth, or if my knees were giving way and I wanted a knee reconstruction, but most relatively 'normal' stuff seems to be covered quite well in the public system. Says me who hasn't got sick since I gained weight a few years ago.

I had a scan in a very swanky converted mansion in a leafy inner Eastern suburb the other week because the big regional hospital was overbooked and was quite surprised to get much better service, a DVD of pictures and absolutely no charge :) I was expecting a gap.

Our local hospital gives you the private room anyway if you have a baby, and if you've got private cover you get wine with your meal and television. Private or public you cough up $5 for additional meals for guests rooming in. The vaguely Helga-ish scarey woman who runs the place is adamant it is much better than the hospitals in the city ... and HER doctors are all hand-picked for speaking good English. She has a point.

Well I was formerly part of the system and have been a patient.

From my experience, knowlege and perspective - private health care is the very last 'luxury' I will ever give up whilst I still earn a wage.

It's something you generally won't fully appreciate until you really need it, but if Sydney is any indication, they are doing absolutely sweet FA to expand the health system infrastructure to cater for not only an aging population, but a rapidly growing one.

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Cool article, I am suprised that some ideas I had are in there (reduced unemployment and family benefits), makes me think that occasionally my ranting is actually close to reality :)

I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that the article insinuates that the problem is the reduction in people paying the taxes; old people don't cost particularly more but they don't contribute. This is pretty much what I believe from some fairly light hearted thinking about it.

Importing a bunch of skilled people and encouraging businesses to set up here seems a decent way of reducing that problem.

I read it as saying that the cost of the changing demographics (aging population) is not as great as the government claims. A large proportion of the increased cost projected by the report is for the increased population. So in essence the government is raising immigration levels to pay for the increased costs of a higher population. wacko.gif The claim is also made that older people have the capacity to contribute substantially more to the cost of their retirement and that successive governments have introduced measures that have exacerbated the problem (tax breaks through salary sacrificing super, pharmaceutical benefits for the rich etc)

I would really prefer that skill shortages were addressed through training of the local populace rather than importing skilled workers from OS as much as is possible. Why do we let governments of all stripes that have so obviously failed to address the the training requirements for skills in trades and professionals in this country simply import these skills instead of fixing the fundamental imbalance in the education/training systems. If we can't do this with our comparative wealth who can?

The countries that we poach these workers from surely require their own talent pools to address their own skills shortages and other societal woes. Aren't we simply creating a brain drain for countries less well off and less capable of provisioning for their own needs with the lure of a "better" economic lifestyle here?

I'm not anti immigration per se. I don't care about the ethnic mix of the population particularly as long as we can all show some tolerance. Which I believe we currently do. I'm pro multiculturalism as I believe it has enriched the society beyond measure. I'm more for having an immigration policy based on a sustainable future and not simply using it as a fix all to every problem we face.

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Well I was formerly part of the system and have been a patient.

From my experience, knowlege and perspective - private health care is the very last 'luxury' I will ever give up whilst I still earn a wage.

It's something you generally won't fully appreciate until you really need it, but if Sydney is any indication, they are doing absolutely sweet FA to expand the health system infrastructure to cater for not only an aging population, but a rapidly growing one.

I am part of the 'system' and have recently (last month) been a patient- not paid a cent. Had a private scan with zero additional charge, the results sad.gif of which took me to the public hospital ED and then back in there for surgery 3 days later.

Just for a laugh I calculated my potential out-of-pocket costs -would have been about $400 plus if I had chosen to have private insurance and use it in the public hospital, vastly higher at a private hospital.

As I will say again (to anyone who will listen) the risks of private health are too high- I want to have my rare life threatening postoperative complications in a large tertiary central hospital with bells and whistles, not some posh suburban private hospital where specialists are at the end of the phone rather than the corridor.

As for people risking having their babies in the private system- sheesh, don't even get me started..........

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As for people risking having their babies in the private system- sheesh, don't even get me started..........

Need a c-section, epidural or some other nice interventions with that? :)

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Go visit any number of suburbs in Sydney with a high Asian population mate, or attend a local auction in such an area and see the reality for yourself because this isn't true.

They're as hungry for Aus property as anyone.

Most of our immigrants are Brits and Kiwis, are you saying their hunger for Aus property its OK because they blend in?

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But how much of the social security and military and road and hospital budget is wasted on overpaid government bludgers?

That is the rapacious government I am worried about.

This based on your experience working in the Military, building roads, as a medical professional or as a social worker?

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I am glad I wasn't around to discuss this. I am short on time as it is.

1. Stop immigration until the average single income is 3x average house cost

2. Raise taxes on people over 65 until the year 2040

3. Account for all assets in the asset test

4. Lower social welfare payouts for people over 65 until the year 2040

5. Remove all exemptions and deductions from the tax code

1. Stop immigration until the average single income is 3x average house cost

No relationship. Prove the relationship. Post WW2 we had some cyclic immigration booms with no housing booms/bubbles.

2. Raise taxes on people over 65 until the year 2040

Dumb. Most over 65 don't pay tax, they receive welfare.

3. Account for all assets in the asset test

You can't use your house as an ATM nor your 1972 HQ Kingswood. Income producing assets are assessed.

4. Lower social welfare payouts for people over 65 until the year 2040

The Pension is welfare and below the poverty line.

5. Remove all exemptions and deductions from the tax code

Even dumber. If you spend money to earn money, it has to be a deduction. Negative gearing and losses on market speculation are another issue.

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1. Stop immigration until the average single income is 3x average house cost

As stated, the relationship between the two is small at best. I'd stop the immigration on pure principle to be honest - because much of the Australian heritage is being washed away on imports who give less than a sh*t about Australian values - they're just here to live on the government hand outs and not being bombed.

Unfortunately, we're bringing in sh*t 'skilled' labour. We're heading backwards on an international competitive scale as we force out our young and bright hopefuls and importing people who come from nations with bad track records concerning human rights and education.

From a humanitarian perspective it's a nice ideal, but when you're trying to manage a workplace with these people shoved in for political reasons, you soon realise why the hell why most people adopt a NIMBY approach.

We didn't import skilled labour at all. We imported cheap, low cost labour with bullsh*t 3rd world nation pieces of paper as credentials.

2. Raise taxes on people over 65 until the year 2040

Tax what though? They don't earn an income :/

If we're going to get the bastards to fund their own lifestyles we need to encourage them back into the workforce, not away from it.

Tax 'em less on income from work - more on passive income from investments.

3. Account for all assets in the asset test

This I agree with. The family home has been a tax haven for far too long!

4. Lower social welfare payouts for people over 65 until the year 2040

Nah, that won't work. I prefer the carrot to the stick approach - people are greedy. Give em more to be productive than being lazy and you increase productivity.

Want to cut any handouts? Axe all of them except for the exceptional circumstances. Rip cheap money out of the system and inflation goes down along with prices. It increases the relative wealth of those being productive and earning a wage.

I'll give up my family tax benefit and rent assistance no problems if you axe negative gearing and welfare for the lazy.

5. Remove all exemptions and deductions from the tax code

Bad for business bra. We need to give incentive for productivity. The problem with the current tax system is that it's so weak to parasitical activity and rewards those who know how to exploit the loopholes.

People are f*cking lazy, but if you give the right sort of incentive to productive means - everyone benefits.

Keep tax deducations for business and education - knock it over for speculation. Absolutely NO loss on investment should be offset by tax, it should be a simple byproduct of risk. The greater the risk, the more likely you'll lose money and that puts speculative investment at the top of the tree.

I'd give tax incentives for development of solar/wind farms over some dickhead rolling dice on property any day of the week.

We NEED the tax breaks - but we need it far better focused than it is now.

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Most of our immigrants are Brits and Kiwis, are you saying their hunger for Aus property its OK because they blend in?

You're mincing words there Tin.

Edited by tux

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As stated, the relationship between the two is small at best. I'd stop the immigration on pure principle to be honest - because much of the Australian heritage is being washed away on imports who give less than a sh*t about Australian values - they're just here to live on the government hand outs and not being bombed.

that is bullsh*t, pure and simple. do a little research before you start sh*tting all over people.

the vast majority of immigrants are not refugees. in 07-08 there were a total of 206135 permanent migrants to Aus, of which 13,014, or 6%, were coming under the "Humanitarian" program (i.e., refugees) so this is hardly a major issue is it? you seriously telling me aus can't handle 13k people?

The vast majority come under the skill/family/special skill stream. Have you ever looked at the requirements that go along with temporary and perm residency visas? no i suppose not because you are talking out of your ass again. Temp migrants get zip in terms of social benefits, except your kids qualify for public schools. Don't even qualify for medicare--they have to get their own private insurance. If you manage to get permanent residency you get medicare but nothing else for two years. There is a two year waiting period before you qualify for unemployment, student assistance, carer assistance, disability assistance, hardship assistance or concession cards. There is a 10 year waiting period for pension benefits. so if you are going to characterise all migrants as dole bludging leeches show some data or apologise and shut up.

It seems pretty clear that there is no logical basis for your dislike of immigrants. You are quick to jump on stereotypes of dole bludging, centrelink leeching immigrants despite the facts not bearing any of this out. why is that i wonder?

Unfortunately, we're bringing in sh*t 'skilled' labour. We're heading backwards on an international competitive scale as we force out our young and bright hopefuls and importing people who come from nations with bad track records concerning human rights and education.

i'd like to see some evidence to back up this claim. you saying that bright engineers and doctors can't find a job these days because the indians and chinese are taking all the spots? i seem to recall there being a serious skill shortage in these areas... or perhaps you are talking about the rhodes scholars who are dying to become taxi drivers?

From a humanitarian perspective it's a nice ideal, but when you're trying to manage a workplace with these people shoved in for political reasons, you soon realise why the hell why most people adopt a NIMBY approach.

Are you talking about the humanitarian visas or the work visas? keep your argument straight. the two are not the same.

We didn't import skilled labour at all. We imported cheap, low cost labour with bullsh*t 3rd world nation pieces of paper as credentials.

I see. and these are the people that are forcing our "young and bright hopefuls" out of their jobs?:huh: your argument makes no sense. the immigrants are low cost labour, the immigrants are taking all the good jobs so our "good people" are forced out, the immigrants are leeching off the dole (in which case they are taking nobody's job)... which false argument is it going to be?

Get some facts before you start maligning whole segments of the aussie population. or is this your version of "australian heritage"? Pick on the brown people and blame them for all your woes?

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that is bullsh*t, pure and simple. do a little research before you start sh*tting all over people.

the vast majority of immigrants are not refugees. in 07-08 there were a total of 206135 permanent migrants to Aus, of which 13,014, or 6%, were coming under the "Humanitarian" program (i.e., refugees) so this is hardly a major issue is it? you seriously telling me aus can't handle 13k people?

The vast majority come under the skill/family/special skill stream. Have you ever looked at the requirements that go along with temporary and perm residency visas? no i suppose not because you are talking out of your ass again. Temp migrants get zip in terms of social benefits, except your kids qualify for public schools. Don't even qualify for medicare--they have to get their own private insurance. If you manage to get permanent residency you get medicare but nothing else for two years. There is a two year waiting period before you qualify for unemployment, student assistance, carer assistance, disability assistance, hardship assistance or concession cards. There is a 10 year waiting period for pension benefits. so if you are going to characterise all migrants as dole bludging leeches show some data or apologise and shut up.

It seems pretty clear that there is no logical basis for your dislike of immigrants. You are quick to jump on stereotypes of dole bludging, centrelink leeching immigrants despite the facts not bearing any of this out. why is that i wonder?

Can you please point out to me all the swiss, german, japanese, euro, canadian and even american immigrants clambering onto our shores for a better standard of living?

They don't because our country is a sh*tbomb on it's taxation law for working class individuals, with a ridiculous cost of living that in a declining standard, garbage public services and overpriced property values.

I have eyes and look around me. The vast majority of those clambering into my suburbs are those from countries with even lower standards than ours.

And if you're stupid enough to believe that 2 years shacking up with established family in Sydney to wait for your handout is a tough ask, then you're an idiot.

I used to work in the employment game at Federal level there - I saw the figures first hand. Don't give me this sh*t about 'skilled labour' importing policy bullsh*t because it's a con. With over a million f*cking immigrants over the last few years the mining sector in WA is STILL looking to import people.

Like wtf, you think we couldn't find a workforce from the last round of intakes?

TAKE THE BLINKERS OFF FFS!!!

i'd like to see some evidence to back up this claim. you saying that bright engineers and doctors can't find a job these days because the indians and chinese are taking all the spots? i seem to recall there being a serious skill shortage in these areas... or perhaps you are talking about the rhodes scholars who are dying to become taxi drivers?

Take a walk outside. Visit the local stores. Just open a phone book ffs. I'm NOT doing your legwork for you.

But since you're in such a demanding mood, why not post your OWN f*cking figures if you disagree? Don't ask for what you can't provide yourself...

Are you talking about the humanitarian visas or the work visas? keep your argument straight. the two are not the same.

WORK VISAS

But if you're stupid enough to believe those coming in on work visas are doing so for the work benefits in Aus, then you're an idiot.

Australia's working conditions - especially in relation to taxes - is terrible. The only people who think it's all right at those coming from countries with even worse standards.

I see. and these are the people that are forcing our "young and bright hopefuls" out of their jobs?:huh: your argument makes no sense. the immigrants are low cost labour, the immigrants are taking all the good jobs so our "good people" are forced out, the immigrants are leeching off the dole (in which case they are taking nobody's job)... which false argument is it going to be?

No, you're interpretation makes no sense.

Our tax system is forcing out our best people.

Our rubbish immigration policy is a sham effort to get in 'skilled workers' when it's all about getting in idiots to keep the asset bubble going and pay for the aging population.

Gen X/Y Aus Born are just victims caught in the sorry mess.

Get some facts before you start maligning whole segments of the aussie population. or is this your version of "australian heritage"? Pick on the brown people and blame them for all your woes?

I don't buy into this hole political correct moronic attitude that you seem to swallow and I'll call a spade a f*cking shovel if it's true.

Unless you're a moron and not keeping score, I'm more than happy to aim my sites at ANY demographic I think have a part to play and I pull no punches or make no excuses for doing it.

I absolutely think we need to turn off the immigration tap and stop importing lacklustre skills we should be developing on our own.

Apart from selling rocks out of the ground, what else is this country known for?

Get your head out of your arse and realise that we're being systematically dumbed down for a reason and the gap between the haves and have nots is growing wider.

If you're too retarded to encompass ALL the factors contributing to this, then that's your problem - not mine. But I won't spare any niceties for the sake of political correctness in an honest assessment of this situation.

In case you're not keeping score Urchin, gloves are off with Firefly in terms of assessing this disaster that this country has become.

[mod edit of a mod edit ... sheesh ... calm down all]

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When are you going to figure out that this isn't about being politically correct, its about being CORRECT. If you (falsely) sh*t all over immigrants, i, as an immigrant, am going to sh*t all over your false arguments and your selective ignorance of the facts. unlike you i will support my argument with something more substantial than "go f*uck yourself" (though the sentiment is certainly there).

Let's take it one point at a time.

You say that the immigrants are here for the handouts. I say that temp. residents aren't eligible for anything and perm residents have to wait 2 years. your response?

And if you're stupid enough to believe that 2 years shacking up with established family in Sydney to wait for your handout is a tough ask, then you're an idiot.

Hardly a convincing response. If you come on a work visa (you did say work visas) and want to get permanent residency, you will have to show that you have been working in order to get perm. residency. you are suggesting that these people get sponsored somehow for a working visa but don't work and instead stay shacked up with their rellies until they get perm residency (which will be hard to do if you haven't been working) stay with said rellies for another two years before they can catch the gov't gravy train? Seems a bit absurd to me, but no doubt you have some sort of evidence to back this up?

Oh that's right--you just have to take off the blinkers. Ok, the immigrants I know: doctors, IT technicians, gov't employees, university lecturers, researchers, and librarians. Those are the only immigrants I know so they must be representative of all immigrants, right? After all, that is the basis of your argument--you are basing everything you say on what you see around you, right?

Edited by urchin

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But since you're in such a demanding mood, why not post your OWN f*cking figures if you disagree? Don't ask for what you can't provide yourself...

But I did supply figures to back up my argument. If there is a specific part of my argument with which you have a problem and the figures are readily available I will try to track them down. I am interested in knowing the truth, i'm not locked into irrational preconceptions about what the world is like. If there are problems with immigration (and no doubt there are) then they should be addressed.

But it does piss me off to see ignorant claims that all the immigrants are on the dole when it is clearly prohibited by the law and they have no evidence to support their claim. Whenever i got to centrelink to file paperwork i always see a bunch of white aussie males in their 20-30s who are obviously junkies. Should I make the same generalisation and say that all gen x and gen y aussie males are heroin freaks who spend their days squeegeeing windshields to get their next fix? no, that would clearly be absurd. get the point?

Go ahead and take the gloves off - doesn't bother me. would appreciate it if you put your thinking cap on at the same time though.

Edited by urchin

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Tax what though? They don't earn an income :/

If we're going to get the bastards to fund their own lifestyles we need to encourage them back into the workforce, not away from it.

Tax 'em less on income from work - more on passive income from investments.

This I agree with. The family home has been a tax haven for far too long!

To get full pension:

Oldies currently can earn up to $142 a fortnight

Nonhomeowners can have up to $307,000 in assets

Homeowners can have up to $178,000 in assets

Those numbers are so small it is hardly encouraging people into the workforce or to have income or assets.

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But it does piss me off to see ignorant claims that all the immigrants are on the dole when it is clearly prohibited by the law and they have no evidence to support their claim. Whenever i got to centrelink to file paperwork i always see a bunch of white aussie males in their 20-30s who are obviously junkies. Should I make the same generalisation and say that all gen x and gen y aussie males are heroin freaks who spend their days squeegeeing windshields to get their next fix? no, that would clearly be absurd. get the point?

But I didn't say all the immigrants are on the dole.

What I am saying is that this country's elite are bitching and moaning about the result of their own manipulation of the economic climate in terms of skilled workers and then demand that we increase our skilled immigrant program to compensate.

But we're pulling in immigrants that are simply not skilled - we're pulling in the sh*t from countries even worse than ours on standards and lowering the overall skillbase for the country to operate on.

It's why I asked why the major demographic coming in to fill this shortage are not coming from countries with higher standards of living - and there's a reason for it.

But we're still taking in the sh*t anyway because it's not about filling a skilled worker gap at all, but rather taking in the suckers who will feed the machine and provide the tax dollars needed to fund the growing eldery climate, when they could have easily done it in house with fair and productive policy - but they thought this solution was better.

Steadily over the last 20 years we've degenerate the standard of living and continually pushed people into worse paying jobs, paying more for less whilst our standard of living is in decline.

On nearly all levels of government and policy from housing, government services, healthcare and education we are raping the system to pay for a majority vote that has no agenda to the nations' interest but it's own.

Tell me why on earth would you favour a system where you import your skilled workforce from 3rd world countries over improving your own education system?

Doesn't that amount to just cutting your nose off despite your face?

But it's the perfect quick fix solution for a generation that won't have to be concerned with the long lasting effects if it means they get what they want here and now.

That's my concern. I'm part of the blood of this country born and bred right here, struggling with the garbage selfish policy of a generation before and because we won't play slave the way they want, they're just going to 'fix' the situation by dumping in cheap marginally skilled labour here to compete with us and we have no recourse for complaining about this?

Of course we do!

The media constantly screams about how we are not providing enough for ourselves - how there's a housing shortage and how peak oil will reduce food and resources for everyone and what's our solution to it all?

Open the floodgates to other over populated nations with standards lower than our own.

Oh GENIUS solution that one!

It's not like post WW2 where we took in masses of people for humanitarian reasons. It's not we went chasing the bright stars of other leading nations for scientific minds and social advancement.

Oh no, this is about bringing in a ready made workforce that can not only create internal competition to push down wages further (and it's worked, most wages have hardly moved in the last decade!) but also dumbing down a population to forcibly accept a lower standard of living in return.

Well I won't sit by and smile about it mate. I'm sorry, but that's a bullsh*t cop out solution to a problem these people should have been looking to fix long ago.

There should be a sign at the airport which simply says : f*ck off, we're full

Go ahead and take the gloves off - doesn't bother me. would appreciate it if you put your thinking cap on at the same time though.

You should know by now that if you come at Firefly with a knife bared I come back with a chainsaw. [MOD: LET GO OF IT OR THE END WILL DROP OFF. OK?]

I'm generally open to reason, but I'm not that well placated that I'll honor social niceties whilst I have my rights stripped away. That's what lead to people like me being victims of this bullsh*t society in hte first place.

Australia honors human rights, as long as you are in the 2/3 voting majority.

Being in the remaining 1/3, I don't exactly feel the compulsion to smile and play ball whilst the greedy 2/3 shove a big debt laden dick up my arse.

I'm fighting for MY rights AND my kids.

We need to stop pandering to the bullsh*t needs of the aged and start giving a damn about where we are going to be once these bastards die off because if we don't, then you won't even recognise this country in 2 generations from now.

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But I didn't say all the immigrants are on the dole.

I'd stop the immigration on pure principle to be honest - because much of the Australian heritage is being washed away on imports who give less than a sh*t about Australian values - they're just here to live on the government hand outs and not being bombed.

Emphasis added. So immigrants aren't here for the dole, they are here for gov't handouts? Despite not being eligible for any of em...

It's why I asked why the major demographic coming in to fill this shortage are not coming from countries with higher standards of living - and there's a reason for it.

Top 10 countries of birth for offshore skilled arrivals by applicant type(a) - 2007-08

1 United Kingdom

2 India

3 China

4 South Africa

5 Malaysia

6 Phillipines

7 Sri Lanka

8 Korea, Republic of

9 Singapore

10 Ireland

So the UK and Ireland are in the top 10. Not that that is really the point. Does the fact that someone is coming from a country with a lower standard of living mean that they cannot contribute positively to Australia? Are you suggesting that they must be underqualified because they grew up overseas (even if they got their professional qualifications from an Australian, UK or US institution)?

But we're still taking in the sh*t anyway because it's not about filling a skilled worker gap at all, but rather taking in the suckers who will feed the machine and provide the tax dollars needed to fund the growing eldery climate, when they could have easily done it in house with fair and productive policy - but they thought this solution was better.

Yep, some under/un qualified immigrants are making it through. no doubt. best solution being to "turn off the taps entirely" They could have done it easily in house with a fair and productive policy? How so?

Steadily over the last 20 years we've degenerate the standard of living and continually pushed people into worse paying jobs, paying more for less whilst our standard of living is in decline
.

You are changing the topic. As you well know my post was in response to the following absurd and confusing assertions:

I'd stop the immigration on pure principle to be honest - because much of the Australian heritage is being washed away on imports who give less than a sh*t about Australian values - they're just here to live on the government hand outs and not being bombed.

Unfortunately, we're bringing in sh*t 'skilled' labour. We're heading backwards on an international competitive scale as we force out our young and bright hopefuls and importing people who come from nations with bad track records concerning human rights and education.

From a humanitarian perspective it's a nice ideal, but when you're trying to manage a workplace with these people shoved in for political reasons, you soon realise why the hell why most people adopt a NIMBY approach.

We didn't import skilled labour at all. We imported cheap, low cost labour with bullsh*t 3rd world nation pieces of paper as credentials.

Tell me why on earth would you favour a system where you import your skilled workforce from 3rd world countries over improving your own education system?

I thought you said that we were importing sh*t workers... In fact I believe your exact words were:

Unfortunately, we're bringing in sh*t 'skilled' labour.

We didn't import skilled labour at all. We imported cheap, low cost labour with bullsh*t 3rd world nation pieces of paper as credentials.

What is it going to be? I like the way you are trying to add nuance to an argument that was, originally, utterly without any sort of nuance. Are you now saying that these people do in fact possess valuable skills that we would like aussies to have too? My dentist is Chinese. His "3 world nation piece of paper" is from U. of Melb. I'm an immigrant from the US. My third world piece of paper comes from a reasonably solid uni in the US. You spout this kind of crap, don't be surprised when it gets torn apart. Its insulting, bigoted and--most importantly--wrong.

That's my concern. I'm part of the blood of this country born and bred right here, struggling with the garbage selfish policy of a generation before and because we won't play slave the way they want, they're just going to 'fix' the situation by dumping in cheap marginally skilled labour here to compete with us and we have no recourse for complaining about this?

now its cheap marginally skilled labour.... to compete with people in fields where there are skills shortages. Sure the system is probably being abused, and those abuses/loopholes ought to be fixed. But saying that all immigrants are XYZ because certain aspects of the system aren't working is like saying we should close down all the hospitals because some of the doctors are inept. This is cutting off your nose to spite your face...

There should be a sign at the airport which simply says : f*ck off, we're full

And that is really the distillation of your view isn't it. Doesn't matter what shortages we have here, doesn't matter what immigrants can contribute--you just want them to go away. One wonders who you would blame for all your woes if they did go away. Boomers I guess. What happens when they all die off? I suppose it would "damned kids today...".

You should know by now that if you come at Firefly with a knife bared I come back with a chainsaw. I'm generally open to reason, but I'm not that well placated that I'll honor social niceties whilst I have my rights stripped away. That's what lead to people like me being victims of this bullsh*t society in hte first place.

as i said, i don't care. I find your initial assertions much more offensive than your subsequent personal attacks. I don't expect niceties or reason from you. Especially not when you characterise a whole segment of the population as deadbeats. What I care about is accuracy and your claims turn out to be wrong with alarming frequency. You assert that immigrants are here to leech off the gov't. I show that they can't because the law doesn't allow that and you go off on some other rant. I'm not saying the system is perfect, i'm saying that your understanding of the system is imperfect and that you ought to take a little responsibility and learn more about things before you go slagging off a whole segment of aussie society--of which I am a proud member. Though, like many, many other aussie immigrants, I am not from a third world country.

Is it too much to ask that you get your facts straight before you start telling people "f*ck off we're full"?

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Take a walk outside. Visit the local stores. Just open a phone book ffs. I'm NOT doing your legwork for you.

It's a fundamental principle of logical arguments that the person who makes a claim is the one who is responsible for finding evidence to back it up.

If I tell you that there exists a magical, pink, winged flying unicorn in the bush outside my house, the burden of proof is up to me - it's totally unfair for me to ask you to come here to have a look for yourself to prove that it exists or not.

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Most of the time I'm happy to be a lurker - I was one on GHPC and I am now one here. But Firefly's posts bring out the worst in me :).

Oh no, this is about bringing in a ready made workforce that can not only create internal competition to push down wages further (and it's worked, most wages have hardly moved in the last decade!) but also dumbing down a population to forcibly accept a lower standard of living in return.

What a load of bullsh*t.

I can't easily find the yearly wage stats for the last decade, but a few related headlines citing ABS figures can be easily found:

Average wage tops $49,000: ABS May 20, 2004 - 2:57PM

http://www.smh.com.a...l?from=storylhs

Average pay packet tops $57,000* By Nicki Bourlioufas* From: news.com.au* November 15, 2007 12:00AM

http://www.news.com....i-1111114883151

Average weekly earnings jumpNovember 19, 2009

"The average weekly wage in Australia is now $1200.60 [Dr Moon - that's 62.4K pa], after rising by 5.2 per cent in the year to August."

http://www.theage.co...91119-ino3.html

So, from 49K to 62.4K in five years - that's 27.5% growth. Not CPI-adjusted, of course. Let's adjust for 5% inflation a year (can't be bothered to look up the actual numbers) - from 49K to ... surprise! we arrive at 62.5K (49 * (1.05 ) ^ 5). I see wages moving with inflation, roughly. I don't see them 'hardly moving', unless you want them to grow year on year in real terms - that would be difficult in an economy that primarily ships rocks and sells permanent residency visas in exchange for a couple of years' worth of uni fees + rent.

As for the BS about migrants pushing down wages, read this:

http://www.careerone...op-pay-20080317

Skilled temporary migrant workers are earning on average $15,000 more than their Australian counterparts, undermining trade union claims that the system is being abused to undercut local wages.

...

The average yearly salary for a 457 visa holder was about $71,600, more than $15,000 above the average salary of about $55,500.

These are 2006-2007 figures, so the average temp worker salary would have moved up in line with the overall average salary.

I'm fighting for MY rights AND my kids.

If you can't compete with skilled migrants, don't whine, use your energy productively: upskill and get a better job with better pay. I know you don't like it when people tell you this (most recently Tor, I think), but that's the unfortunate truth, and the longer you stick your head in the sand about it in the true Australian (think emus) fashion, the longer you will suffer.

Disclaimer: I'm a migrant (skilled independent program).

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Top 10 countries of birth for offshore skilled arrivals by applicant type(a) - 2007-08

1 United Kingdom

2 India

3 China

4 South Africa

5 Malaysia

6 Phillipines

7 Sri Lanka

8 Korea, Republic of

9 Singapore

10 Ireland

Don't forget that New Zealanders don't come under the stats and whilst 30,000 brits immigrated here in 08/09, 47,000 kiwis did as well making them easily number 1.

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/statistics/pdf/report-on-migration-program-2008-09.pdf

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/17nz.htm

Other than that your dissection of firefly's xenophobia is 10/10, carry on.

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Don't forget that New Zealanders don't come under the stats and whilst 30,000 brits immigrated here in 08/09, 47,000 kiwis did as well making them easily number 1.

http://www.immi.gov....ram-2008-09.pdf

http://www.immi.gov....sheets/17nz.htm

Other than that your dissection of firefly's xenophobia is 10/10, carry on.

Anyone got the export figures as well? I'd love to see how many got here, went 'fark THIS' and went back home again ;)

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Does opening the links require a bloody password now?

In the 2008-09 financial year, 47 782 New Zealand citizens came to Australia as permanent and long-term arrivals. This represented an increase of 2.9 percent on the previous year. 33 000 arrived as permanent settlers, and 14 750 were long-term arrivals. This represented a 4.3 percent decrease on the previous year for permanent and a 0.3 percent increase on the previous year for long–term arrivals.

Permanent and long–term departures of New Zealand citizens increased in 2008-09. Permanent departures increased to 8479 (up 3.4 percent) and long-term departures increased to 7290 (up 2.7 percent).

In 2008-09 New Zealand citizen net permanent and long-term movement was 32 013, a downturn from high growth of 2007-08.

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Does opening the links require a bloody password now?

So departures are on the rise as well is the general gist?

See, you can't take one set of data into account without looking at both sides of the coin.

But I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar there's more departures back to certain countries than others.

NZ and England are not too bad in terms of living standards... but other demographics in the list represent absolute sh*tbomb nations... ie plenty coming here, very few going back.

I don't doubt they skew the figures.

In addition, I'd rather trust the educational credentials of someone from England or NZ than some of those other countries on the list... because some of those I've had to deal with and trust me, they're f*cking retarded yet have 'professional' qualifications from their home nations.

Mind you, with the way Australian universities are selling our qualifications to international students, I'm not sure we're much better anymore.

No one seems to give a crap about STANDARDS anymore it seems... :angry:

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That's private industry figures. I work in the public sector. We don't scale well with private having next to no leverage to bargain for wage rises.

That's both private and public sector figures. And the average public sector salary is a few grand higher than that of a private sector worker as far as I know. If your salary lagged behind the general trend, you've only got yourself to blame.

Or are we back to the 'want a decent standard of living get a better paying job' arguement once more?

Want a better standard of living - get a better paying job. Yes. There's no way out of it unless you win the lottery. You can't sit on your ass and demand better pay for your mere existence.

So you're a migrant yourself brought in under this bullsh*t scheme?

I get it now... bias much?

Skilled independent migration a bullsh*t scheme? Firefly, I suggest you run your own qualifications and skills against any immigration scheme in the English-speaking world - say, the ones implemented in Canada, the UK, New Zealand or even (gasp) Australia.

Add up the points and see how you measure up against people you keep bagging. Then add a year of your life during which you'll be gathering documents and approving your qualifications and work experience with whatever Australian organisation(s) necessary.

After that add another year or so for medicals, English proficiency tests, police checks, additional information as requested by your case officer, etc. etc. After a couple of years you _may_ be granted a visa. If you are, you have to uproot yourself and start a new life somewhere else, most likely leaving a good job with decent pay.

The skilled independent scheme is hardly bullsh*t - it actually brings in ready-made professionals who are keen on integrating and starting a new life here. It doesn't come with a job guarantee - very few newly arrived permanent migrants have jobs to go to. Most end up eating through their savings in the first year or so, regardless of whether they got jobs soon enough. It's a great opportunity to come and live here, and I certainly appreciate it, but you are delusional if you think the wage disparity between Australia and elsewhere is so high everyone is keen just to get here to get a slice of the pie and undercut local workers.

It's a set-back financially and, for the first year or so after the move, most would be better off staying home and sticking to their old jobs. I have friends who left jobs in Europe that paid 100K or more and their first jobs here were less than the graduate wage - 35-40K. By the end of the first year they were back to earning what they did back at home or more, but if you factor in the moving costs, the flights for all the family, etc. etc., it's a hefty sum to pay for the privilege of starting a new life here and trolling the forums with the likes of you :).

Don't put us all in one basket. There are skilled permanent migrants, there are temp visa workers on (sometimes) silly money, there are foreign students who are brought in to prop up the Australian education industry (and I'm sorry but it's crap - it was much harder for me to get a degree back home - studying full time - than getting a postgrad qualification here while working full time and barely opening the textbooks (I got HDs for most subjects)), and there are the boat people. We're not one and the same. But one of us might eventually get your job if you don't pull your socks up :).

First we ensure that no locally skilled essential service worker can even afford a base standard of living or a home, THEN we import these assholes and they tell US to upskill to compete?

And these people actually have the audacity to wonder what drove the people at Cronulla to act like they did?

I thought Cronulla riots were instigated by thugs. In my daily life, I am surrounded by intelligent, interesting people (ironically, mostly Australian-born people of Anglo-Saxon descent) who have no interest in bashing me just because I came from another country :). And they have the same problems as me and the rest of white collar workers: constantly upskill to keep up with the market or be left behind.

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Mmmkay, there's a bunch of people with quite rational arguments coming into this thread now so hopefully it settles back into sanity.

Calm down, take a breath before typing, and if someone is tearing your argument apart when you don't actually have solid facts and research, just opinion, its probably best to just walk away before someone who knows more than you makes you look silly.

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